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Post by Nero Panathanikos on Jan 14, 2004 17:53:24 GMT -5
I've been a wresling fan in for some 35 odd years now and have attended shows since i was 12 years old. But recently I have noticed that wrestling in Ontario has not only dropped off but all I always see the same guys, show after show doing the same spots and to be honest it seems to have gotten a bit stale. I still love the industry but I think that there is some new blood needed to revitalise the shows. I was at a NEO show down in Niagra recently and although there were some new young faces, they wre doing the same moves the more experienced wrestlers like Eric Young and Derek Wylde were doing. To be honest both of these fine wrestlers are where they are because that is their style and more power to them on it. If you are gonna break into a company at least bring something new to offer and not the same stuff that came before you. By no means am I going after NEO as I actually kinda enjoyed the show, but I've been to see wrestling in Cornwall by Grand Prix(not the old one) and it was(for lack of a better word) crap. What ever happened to wrestling where the guy made it look like a punch meant something. Nowadays the guys take a huge move and get back up extending their left hand......My point is I know how much the guys put into their work but please we fans are not stupid, try to make us believe it
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cody
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Post by cody on Jan 14, 2004 18:38:40 GMT -5
"What ever happened to wrestling where the guy made it look like a punch meant something."
I agree.
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Post by Eric on Jan 14, 2004 18:55:03 GMT -5
I wish I could have read this before Cody to be the first one to agree. I think the answer might lie in this, that many of the wrestlers have never been in a real scrap. One where the other guy is trying to hurt you, and has the wherewithal to accomplish that. Not saying that you have to attend your local watering hole and fight in the street every night, but once or twice might help.
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cody
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Post by cody on Jan 14, 2004 22:58:49 GMT -5
Eric, you make somewhat of a valid point. However, this IS pro wrestling, not UFC. If wrestlers wrestled like is WAS "real", then I must say, it would get quite boring.
I do think that a lot of the new guys (myself included) need to concentrate on performing things that WOULD make sense IF it was an actually fight while still not performing it as if it actually was a fight. I know that sounds confusing, but let me give an example.
If you watch Jake Roberts work, you will see that when he bumps, he falls depending on where he gets hit. If he gets punched on the left side of the face, he bumps down to his right on his right side of his back. Contrast with how Dean Malenko bumps. He bumps the opposite way. Now, both are fantastic workers, but for different reasons. Jake's work ethic is the kind of work we are talking about here. He once said, "Psychology is easy. I just think of what I would do if I was actually in a fight." Thought you might like that Eric.
Cody
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Post by Iron Mike on Jan 15, 2004 13:07:39 GMT -5
A wrestling match should look like a fight or at least an athletic competition IMHO. Some of the younger, greener guys wrestle the same way because training is still fresh in their minds, so they are going to do what they know. Experience in front of a crowd and listening to the verterans will get the psychology right as well. Just some more rambling from me, oh yeah go check out my interview at www.ocwwrestling.com.
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Post by Rory MacAlister on Jan 15, 2004 13:49:49 GMT -5
I have to agree with Eric. Wrestling has lost a little credability due to the fact that the crowd are looking at some of the guys in the ring and they know for a fact that they can kick that 160lbs ass if they wanted to, so if these fragments of men can take a back body drop and get up without it looking devastating then the crowd loses a little bit of faith that the move actually hurts, which it does. And I'm not saying people look less legit because of their size because I know some small guys who could whip my ass but some of these guys look like they'd paint their drawers if they were in a bar and someone had a problem with them.
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Post by Gentleman Geoff on Jan 15, 2004 14:28:56 GMT -5
To me it is just not the size of the wrestler.. sure you can put a small guy against a big guy in a David vs Goliath type match and that could be good too. As long as the proper psycology is there.
Like I think Rory said you have people in the audience who know they can beat up the wrestlers in the ring. It also doesnt help if the audience knows that the ref in the ring is bigger and could easily beat up the wrestlers too. I've noticed that before...
But it all comes down to psycology and selling. Now I am not one to talk from experience as I have never been a competitor (definetly not in the right shape for it..too round..lol), but I see all the matches from the best seat in the house and get to see many of them.
However, sometimes I am bored out of my tree. The reason is because there is usually a couple younger guys going in there and you know they have planned every spot in the back before they got in the ring. When the fight starts it is a complete spot fest. "ok I will hit you with this finishing move, kick out and then you hit me with this other finishing move. I will kick out and we will go back and forth like this for 15 minutes".
UGh. All it is is a spot fest.. doing a million potential finshers and kicking out of every one of them. I just keep asking myself what will it take for the match to end. Not because I am on the edge of my seat in anticipation for what it would finally take to put this superhuman man down for the pin, but because I really want it to end! I am Bored silly!
What ever happened to working over a body part to get ready for a finishing maneuvre? I can't imagine how Gorilla Monsoon would call one of these spot fests! He was great as he helped the psycology get across to the audience at home.
What happened to a guy like Randy Savage getting the crap beaten out of him for 20 min and then coming back at the end. The whole time he is selling all his injuries. It looks hopeless for him to win, but somehow he overcomes adversity and gets the pin and the cheers. How boring would it be to see him trade moves all night with Hogan. Boring.
I remember Savage vs Bret Hart when Hart was a heel. Hart dominated the entire match but Savage hurt his ankle when he flew to the outside. He took off his boot and hopped around for the next 10 minutes making it look painful for him to even stand and hopeless he would win... Bret worked the ankle he ankle the ENTIRE time after Savage was injured. No-one (myself included) though he could come back.. but he eventually did.
That match to me is what a wrestling match should be. Anyone who knows the match I am talking of will probably agree with me... Not a bloody spot fest that bores everyone to tears and the wrestlers think they are getting over at their athletic ability. That will only get you so far.. but you gotta tell the story to go with it.
But hey, what do I know.. I'm just the ring announcer.
Cheers
Gentleman Geoff
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Post by Eric on Jan 15, 2004 15:34:33 GMT -5
Alright, I agree with everybody, and that in itself is very unusual. I think a big thing that draws people to pro wrestling in our post kayfabe days, is the same thing that draws people to magic shows. They like to be fooled, and if the illusion is that good it can suspend disbelief. I think it helps if a wrestler does look legit. Legit can mean many things beyound size and conditioning alone. The way a person carries themselves, something unusual or perhaps repulsive about them, and the best of all is "that look". I remember it when I met a friend of my dads, the original Shiek. Not a huge man, not in good shape, but just plain scary. He could shoot out a glance that went right through you. As I wander through this respone I want to return to the original post. I think Nero wants to see new and different characters, not someone who looks like another wrestler, acts like that wrestler and wrestles like that wrestler. He doesn't want to see a new pair of tights on a guy who can run the ropes all night, he wants to see a fight he's intersted in. I suppose since I've mouthed off now I should run again....soon.
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Post by Iron Mike on Jan 15, 2004 19:01:08 GMT -5
I respond to Geoff, round is a shape. Not everybody has to look like a body builder to be a wrestler, trust me on this brother.
Fresh new talent is hard to come by but its out there just waiting to shine if given the chance.
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Post by Gentleman Geoff on Jan 15, 2004 22:17:33 GMT -5
Naw Mike.. I was more making fun of myself. Plenty of "round" guys can be good wrestlers.. I just know I don't have the physique, cardio vascular or desire to ever think about getting in the ring to wrestle.
I am enjoying what I already do just fine!
Geoff
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cody
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Posts: 130
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Post by cody on Jan 16, 2004 2:13:19 GMT -5
Hey guys, I'd like you guys to go over to www.codysteele.cjb.net and read my latest live journal entry. It very much pertains to this topic. Please let me know what you think. Thanks, cody
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Post by Emanuel Melo on Jan 16, 2004 11:06:53 GMT -5
Hey Cody, just read your commentary and I agree with you that in the 80's everything meant so much more in the ring. Sadly, workers today can't pull off that type of psychology and not get BORING chants. That's what the entertainment aspect of wrestling has done to this sport. That being said, instead of just pulling off spotfests it would be nice to see more matches where the workers build to the big spots instead of just hitting them one after another. When the babyface keeps signaling to the crowd that he's going to the top but the heel keeps stopping him from pulling off the big move it becomes so much more exciting when the babyface finally pulls off the big spot.
Also, I love Cody's quote: "If you don't like Flair, you don't like wrestling. Ric Flair IS wrestling."
Couldn't have said it any better.
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Post by JoggingPro on Jan 16, 2004 19:09:06 GMT -5
Eric, you make somewhat of a valid point. However, this IS pro wrestling, not UFC. If wrestlers wrestled like is WAS "real", then I must say, it would get quite boring. I do think that a lot of the new guys (myself included) need to concentrate on performing things that WOULD make sense IF it was an actually fight while still not performing it as if it actually was a fight. I know that sounds confusing, but let me give an example. If you watch Jake Roberts work, you will see that when he bumps, he falls depending on where he gets hit. If he gets punched on the left side of the face, he bumps down to his right on his right side of his back. Contrast with how Dean Malenko bumps. He bumps the opposite way. Now, both are fantastic workers, but for different reasons. Jake's work ethic is the kind of work we are talking about here. He once said, "Psychology is easy. I just think of what I would do if I was actually in a fight." Thought you might like that Eric. Cody What about all that great stuff from All Japan from the 90s? I really believe bringing back realism to pro wrestling is the answer. And I do believe that UFC/MMA should have a far greater influence on wrestling. You could say in response that the crowd won't buy it, but I totally disagree. Wrestling is a manipulation of the viewer. Bringing in more submissions, and realism would take more than one match and probably more than one show, but I guarantee that if you had something out there that looked like a nasty fight you'd get people buying tickets to come back.
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Post by The Hammer on Jan 18, 2004 6:16:09 GMT -5
Cody, I have never had the chance to be on the same shows as you, but after seeing your opinion on wrestling from the '80's meaning so much more, you have definitely earned my respect, bro. I have been saying this for years and is the primary reason for me leaving the business.I just can't stand kids that look like my paperboy doing 15 minute spot-fests, in the effort of getting themself, not the match, over.
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cody
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Post by cody on Jan 18, 2004 14:08:39 GMT -5
Thanks for the responses guys. Hi Jogging Pro. "Wrestling is a manipulation of the viewer. Bringing in more submissions, and realism would take more than one match and probably more than one show, but I guarantee that if you had something out there that looked like a nasty fight you'd get people buying tickets to come back." I agree with you to a certain extent. But I don't really think what you are suggesting is possible. Pro wrestlers are wrestlers/entertainers NOT legit street-fighters. I think the UFC style should stay in UFC b/c it is legit, and that's why people watch it. Why watch people "pretend" to streetfight when there is people actually doing it. I understand your point about Japan. I think the strong style of Japan gets over becuase of it's stiffness. And there is plenty of stiffness going around on alot of the shows I work on. Hi Hammer. "I just can't stand kids that look like my paperboy doing 15 minute spot-fests, in the effort of getting themself, not the match, over." I hear ya man. It's too bad that that made you quit the business though. I've seen matches like the ones you are talking about. It's just, when I go out and wrestle, I don't do that. And if I get stuck with a 100lb paperboy that wants to do that, I simply say no. I totally agree with what you said about those guys looking to get THEMSELVES over rather than both guys. I've actually wrestled guys that have said before the match, "OK, I gotta do this move, this move, and this move." WHAT?! That's just not wrestling. And I don't condone that. My main goal of a match is to get the fans to react to the story that my opponent and I are trying to tell and to make both my opponent and I look strong in the process. Thanks for the posts guys. Cody
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