cody
Full Member
Posts: 130
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Post by cody on Jan 23, 2004 0:21:03 GMT -5
"Just for the record... I want to say this before I forget.. Cody, for someone who hasnt been in the business all that long, you certainly are mature, well spoken, and respect it like a long time vet."
Thanks Phil. I appreciate that.
Wait.... on second thought.... based on what TID said..... I DON'T appreciate that. You're a dildo flinging, anal bead rubbin', rainbow flag wavin' skidmark. I don't look forward to our match in Brantford because I wanna put on a good match... I look forward to it so I can hand you your ass, so you can't shove it in anymore male crotches.
How's that TID?
Cody
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Post by HORNET on Jan 23, 2004 0:40:05 GMT -5
Definitely kayfabe is nothing near what it was "back in the day". But we can ALWAYS make the marks take a second thought before they say "this is all in a script".
I am glad TID responded on this thread, because I am gonna use him as an example. Back when I first met TID and was going to his shows, I was a "smart mark" but would still ALWAYS find Tid's matches to be "real". It was believable. Not because of his size, and not just cuz they laid shit in, but because there was a story.
Like Rory said, the fans can be re-educated and I think it's definitely happening. Look at all the old footage that WWE is releasing, look at the ESPN Classic Canada or whatever it's called.
Actually I was watching that the other day and I think it was Terry Funk vs. Jerry Lawler. Neither of those guys are monster sized. Neither of those guys did crazy moves or spots. But it had me captivated from bell to bell, because of the heat in the story they were telling in the ring.
Also watching Smackdown with my dad today...
He was sitting there yelling at the TV like he does during Leaf games. He was telling Chris Benoit to go for a pin, and asking where the hell "John Whatever His Name Is" was.
There are tons of fans like my dad out there. They can say it's all fake one second, but given the right match, they will react the right way.
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Post by HORNET on Jan 23, 2004 1:23:28 GMT -5
Ahem...
Just talking to Ash about this very thing and some more good points are brought up...
- It's the same people who say "it's all fake" that will get into it when they see a good match.
- When there is something that we look at like an ordinary thing....they say "okay now that HAD to be real"...so that kinda goes to show that simplicity DOES get the job done, if done right.
- Like if we wanted to, we could legit fake a fight anywhere and get arrested. Just because it's in a ring a lot of people presume it's fake.
Something I've been thinking for a long time....
The word "fake" to wrestlers is like the "n" word to "black people". If we use the word, it's ok. If anybody else uses it, they deserve a punch in the face and a long explanation.
Also since someone mentioned Eddie Guerrero...Eddie is like the lucha Flair.
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frank
New Member
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Post by frank on Jan 23, 2004 11:13:37 GMT -5
you people still don't get it, you can not reeducate the fan based to appreciate "old school wrestling: because WWE has told everyone, we are entertainment and here is how we do it...when watching the Ric Flair DVD (he is way over rated by the way, same match for twnety years), the reason those matches are considered good is becuase of the crowd heat, the crowd heat is there because although the people know wrestlign is fake, they didn't know all the tricks, they beleived in the characters..take the R&R express for example, they were both married and had kids, but the fans did not know that, the fans (girls in particular) thought they were single and availanle, if the girls knew the truth atht they were married why would they dgo to the shows..this is why the breaking of kafabe has ruined the business and because of this the business will never recover..in the old days people used to pay to see someone get their ass kicked because they were such an effective heel, now due to lack of kafabe fans do not have an emotional investment in the characters.. the saddest part is that there are so many guys trying to make it and all we are getting is older..working the same crappy guys in the same crappy indy's in front of the same fasn..its like in the movie Casino, where the guys screwed it up at the end.. the same will happen to wrestling
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Post by Gentleman Geoff on Jan 23, 2004 11:41:03 GMT -5
been a while since I put my 2 cents back in this conversation...
First to Rob the Ref: I am glad you liked my example of Randy Savage vs Bret Hart there. I think that is one of my favourite all time matches. Another think that helped sell the injury more was the constant pleading of Liz for Randy to just give up. Great match.
Another favourite match I have is one I only saw once back in 1987 or so, but I still remember it. I so wish this match surfaces somehere. WWF Superstars - Memorial Day Edition.. Rare Hogan match on the show with HULK HOGAN vs COWBOY BOB ORTON. Like you guys were saying, suspense can be built when the finishing move keeps getting interupted - "Just when you thought he was done for he pulls out all the stops and the match continues". Anyways back to the match, I had never EVER seen this before in the 80's... HOGAN "HULKED UP" 3 times shaking his fists and nodding his head, and all 3 times COWBOY BOB beat him down. I've seen someone beat a "HULK UP" once before, but never twice let alone 3 times! Eventually Bob lost the match, but it just goes to show you that you can take a complete no talent like Hogan and put him in with a ring technician to put on a psycologically sound match and keep the fans absolutly rivited! If Bob could do it for Hogan, then Benoit can do it for Goldberg.
Anyways, enough of the trip down memory lane... basically we all agree that fans can be re-educated and that spot fests only hurt the business in the long-run (and they are boring)... So I am guessing that I should not expect to see any spot fests at any upcoming shows cause according to this message board everyone is against them.
Of course Spot Fests will survive... I am not kidding myself saying they won't... what we need to do to keep them back is to treat "Spot-festers" as the "NEW Backyarders". I make the analogy to prove how "spot-festers" aren't respecting the business or the history of the business just like the back-yarders do. Sure, they are trained and licensed so they are above backyarders, but the still have a long way to go before they can call themselves "Professional" Wrestlers.
Gentleman Geoff
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Post by Phil Latio on Jan 23, 2004 11:42:10 GMT -5
TID... You are what is wrong with wrestling these days. People like yourself, LEGIT old timers (more so refering to your age then the term Oldtimer) who cant move with the times. Stop acting your age, and grow with the times, Vince did, and so should you.
Cody, I was trying to give you a compliment, and I get a kick in the ass in return, thats coo, Ill remember that when I stick my dildo up your ass so far it comes out your mouth.. Now how does that grab yaaaaaaaaaaaaa skippy.
Phil Latio
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Post by Iron Mike on Jan 23, 2004 12:49:11 GMT -5
Ric Flair overrated!?!?!?! BLASPHEMER!!!!!!
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Post by HORNET on Jan 23, 2004 14:20:04 GMT -5
RIC F'N FLAIR OVER-RATED??
HOGAN a complete no talent???
You guys make baby Jesus cry!
I don't need to say anything about the Flair comment because everyone worships him.
But let me tell you something, we need more Hogans in wrestling. You can say what you want about his workrate, but what I mean is he connected with the fans and the fans believed in him. That made money, and that made wrestling cool. Guys like him, Ricky Steamboat, those super ultra hyper mega babyfaces that the fans can follow the virtues of and say "Man I really believe what this guy is preaching, I want to be just like him!" (and in reverse for heels)
It's guys like that that make wrestling draw....not the guys like Matt "I'm big so I don't need charisma" Morgan. So don't diss the Hulkster.
And I agree with what Frank said, the personal lives should be kayfabed. Like Hogan could be a drug abusing, wife beating, child molesting, rub and tugging, devil worshipper. But that is none of the fans' beeswax.
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Post by my 2 cents on Jan 23, 2004 14:49:59 GMT -5
Rick Flair AWSOME through the age's.
Hulk Hogan CHANGED wrestling forever.
Vince went with the times
What ever you like thats what matters.
OLD school - NEW school - HARDCORE WHATEVER as long as you enjoy the ART of wrestling.
T.I.D. great INDY performer over the years.
To all the young WRESTLERS join a school learn the TRADE, take youre time and do it the right way.
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Post by Gentleman Geoff on Jan 23, 2004 16:45:12 GMT -5
look.. it doesn't matter who thinks HOGAN is great or who thinks he is the shits.. same thing with Flair.. that isn't what this thread is about. People have been using matches as examples for their points.. I know I was...
I refer to HOGAN as being useless as he ony has about 5 or 6 moves and you can almost predict in order his entire match (I'm talking about the 80's Hogan here). Based on his wrestling ability he is useless.. just look at the match with him against Warroior at WM 6.. Snore... Two guys that suck in the ring, but put Hogan with someone like Bob Orton who understands Psycology and you will be sitting on the edge of your seat.
So it doesnt matter who is a genious, who sold more tickets, who changed wrestling forever, who made wrestling what it is today - IT DOESN'T MATTER. That isn't what this thread is about. If you wanna talk about how great a performer is, start a new thread.
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Post by Rory MacAlister on Jan 23, 2004 17:57:27 GMT -5
Frank you're an ass. People can always be re educated. Like I said before you were educated to think that this style of wrestling is the acceptable kind so why can't otheres be taught that wrestling can be changed. Believe me we do get it, there are people commenting on this subjectwho have forgotten more about wrestling than you will ever know and they're all in agreeance. If you don't like it when it changes fine but it will change and for the better.
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Post by HORNET on Jan 23, 2004 19:57:09 GMT -5
Hey Gentleman Geoff,
What I said TOTALLY belongs in this thread. WE are talking about having guys and matches that are believable to watch, and everything means something...and the issue of educating the fans back to the oldschool mentality. You are right, this thread isn't about saying who's the poops, yet you continue to poop on Hogan.
Are you sure you have seen Warrior vs. Hogan from WM6? Were you a mark back then? Watch it...watch the fans, LISTEN to the fans.... I downloaded that match recently and watched it again, and I felt like a kid (even more of a kid than I am now) again. You can say YOU thought it was boring, but if you know what psychology is then you would know that match HAD IT!
(see what I did there, I defended hogan, and i was still on topic)
- Horny
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Post by chico on Jan 23, 2004 21:22:39 GMT -5
Hogan owns, Hogan vs Chono from Ultimate Crush 2003 was friggin awesome. Possibly one of the best Hogan matches i've ever seen. Hogan doing the Axe Bomber = money.
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NotoriousTID
New Member
Support your local authorities!!
Posts: 13
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Post by NotoriousTID on Jan 24, 2004 12:09:47 GMT -5
TID... You are what is wrong with wrestling these days. People like yourself, LEGIT old timers (more so refering to your age then the term Oldtimer) who cant move with the times. Stop acting your age, and grow with the times, Vince did, and so should you. Phil Latio Listen up you little bumblasting gender bender, You are going to have to come up with something better than "you are old". The only thing old about me is my mentality towards the wrestling business. Maybe you should have a little more respect.....oh my bad.....you are the same twit that tried to make a sick joke about Moondog in front of New Jack.....maybe you will only learn respect when someone actually stretches your ass ( no pun intended ). Silly faggot...dicks are for chicks....so I guess that makes you a bitch.
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Post by RWguy on Jan 24, 2004 12:36:23 GMT -5
Frank you're an ass. People can always be re educated. Like I said before you were educated to think that this style of wrestling is the acceptable kind so why can't otheres be taught that wrestling can be changed. Believe me we do get it, there are people commenting on this subjectwho have forgotten more about wrestling than you will ever know and they're all in agreeance. If you don't like it when it changes fine but it will change and for the better. This is interesting. Rory...Frank..this is legit heat. I like that. If you guys want to stop all this internet bantering....and want to settle this discussion in the ring...then Rory...you can get Robbie...and Frank..you can find a suitable partner.....and we can have some REAL fun!!!
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