|
Post by Nero Panathanikos on Jan 20, 2004 16:33:07 GMT -5
I think the fact remains, not enough people are doing it. I go to shows and read things on boards where people SAY that they use psychology when all the do is do one thing off the ropes after another. I watched the HBK HHH match on RAW a few weeks ago and they did absolutely no big moves at all, I think the biggest move was the super kick and that was the finishing move but they had me into it the entire time they were out there. I think to use the psychology that is needed, you must first understand it, and too many young wrestlers use their psychology and not that, that brought wrestling away from the carnies and made it what it was in the hayday of wrestling 15-20 years ago.
|
|
|
Post by Frank on Jan 21, 2004 1:17:51 GMT -5
The problem with wreslting is that every body has seen all of the high risk and that bar has been raised as has the fans expectation. To compare imagine if the NBA banned dunking. Fans would be bored becauase they grew up on Dr. J, Jordan, Carter etc electrifying the crowd. Today the WWE is trying to slow down the style and tell a story, guess what no one cares about the story any more becaue everyone sees how wrestling works re: Tough Enough. When the fans know all of the tricks why would they have any emotional involvement in the matches. When they know Matt Hardy and Lita are dating, why would the fans get emotionally involved in their angle. Also all the backstage vignettes have to go..get back to days where two guys fought, winner gets brief mic time and lets the world knows his intentions..also I hate when matches are made on the spot backstage..what, the guy wasn't booked before then... Why not publisize some sort of win loss record for wrestlers..udate fans on who won house show matches, build up hot streaks, cold streaks. slumps etc..you know treat wrestling like a sport ...they throw all these matches together and no one cares who wins or loses (including the wrestlers)The HHH/HBK match is getting rave reviews for being super old school, but keep in mind those were two made guys wrestling in HBK's hometown for the WWE world title, I don't think it is fair to expect younger WWE guys, or indy guys for that matter have that same type of match and get the same type of reaction,or any reation for that matter from the crowd. Believe me when indy workers today try and tell a story than fans shit all over the match and the match, unless you can do gymnastics you are not considered a "worker"...on another note I was wondering, now that Spanky quit is this a good sigh that the lower end guys are not making that much money..I mean for a guy like Spanky to quit that just means he was barely getting by..I think it will be a wake up call for indy workers with big dreams of making WWE to only get there are relaize it is for the most part bush league...last point, obviously the guys on the ontario Indy scene ae for the most part too small to wrestle and pretty much expose the business when they wrestle and in terms of thee not being any god heavywights..if a heavy weight was really good would he be working indy's...in closing Wrestling will never die...but the wrestlers chances of making a decnet living will..and one last question..if you are not in wrestling to make money then what's the point?
|
|
|
Post by warhed on Jan 21, 2004 7:28:49 GMT -5
To entertain the fans while achieving a childhood dream.
|
|
|
Post by Robb the Reff on Jan 21, 2004 7:40:11 GMT -5
A subject very close to my heart and one of the reasons I'm certainly dealing with in deciding whether or not to continue on in the biz.
I'm old school, and I love matches built on psychology. I HATE spot fests. To me, any worker or workers that put together a match like this are not in the business for the good of the product, they are only in it so they can put a highlight tape together to show their friends.
The post about the Savage/Hart match on Staurday's Night Main Event is one of my all-time favorites and in my abundant tape collection. It had everything, including the heel beat down by HTM and Anvil, the infamous HTM shove of Elizabeth and the incredible work of Savage and Hart. THAT IS WRESTLING.
I don't totally buy the argument that because fans "know" how things are done that a match has to be all go-go-go, high spot after high spot. If you build a match up to the point where people are anticipating the big move or the come back pin, that is way more exciting than watching guys decimate each other only to go right into a turn around spot.
Let's face it, THE ART OF SELLING barely exists in all levels of pro wrestling right now. When did the DDT become a move that doesn't give you a stinger and knock you silly? When did the CLAW become extinct? Workers MUST learn how to sell. If you can sell, you can make an impact in the business. Curt Henning was just awesome. He could put over any guy he worked with because he knew how to sell. Trainers need to spend as much time training on selling moves as they do in teaching moves.
The other point mentioned is picking a body part and working on it. The Minnesota Wrecking Crew were famous for this. The arm behind the back body slam, the quick tags, the punsihment delivered to break down a body part and capitalize on it for the victory. Awesome. Like Cody says, Flair was the man. He just looked for his opportunity to start working on the leg. Oh sure, he'd tease the arm a bit, but you just KNEW that when he had the chance, when his opponent screwed up and left him that opening, it was only a matter of time until we saw the Figure 4.
Wrestling is awesome, we need to understand what it is and try not to make it anything else. We need to get back to story telling and putting the crowd on the edge of their seat. Take them up, bring them down, take them up a little higher and then bring them back, keep building that momentum until the point where a finsih means something.
RTR
|
|
cody
Full Member
Posts: 130
|
Post by cody on Jan 21, 2004 12:31:20 GMT -5
I've been coming back to this post and usually been leaving pretty lengthy posts. However, after reading what Robb has to say, I don't need to. He's totally in the right.
I agree whole-heartedly with everything Robb said.
Cody
|
|
|
Post by James on Jan 21, 2004 13:28:02 GMT -5
I agree with what almost everyone has said. I just think it's retarded to stereotype all lightweights as having no psychology and resorting to spot fests.
Look at Little Guido. Look at Dean Malenko. Look at Eddie Gurrero. Yeah he's big but still lightweight, no? Even in Ontario...look at Ash, Hornet, anyone trained by Fuego I'm sure...as Fuego himself is a lightweight with great psychology. Sure there are guys like Matrox (BCW's Matrox, not PWE's Madrox) who don't know psychology. But it's retarded to say all lightweights are like that. I would rather watch a Hornet, Ash, Fuego match than a spot fest, AND I'd rather watch it than a heavyweight match probably...and they are lightweights.
I've never wrestled or tryed wrestling, so I don't know psychology. But I think I know a good match when I see it...a good story in a match, that is.
|
|
|
Post by Rory MacAlister on Jan 21, 2004 18:36:24 GMT -5
I don't think anyone was typecasting anyone, and psychology isn't something that comes with size. People of all weights and sizes are guilty or not guilty of lacking the mindset needed to truely work a crowd. When Snuka went up to the top rope and jumped onto his opponent it was the biggest thing anyone had ever seen and was truely amazing...now it's a highspot and means next to nothing. Big, small, fat, ripped, I don't care what you look like just entertain me, I can go to a gymnastic show and see people fly around all day. I wanna see wrestling.
|
|
frank
New Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by frank on Jan 21, 2004 20:11:53 GMT -5
to Robb the Ref: Your living in the past man, fans wan tto be entertained...when they see wrestler X in the past do tons of high spots and generally risk thier lives for the fans amusement, and then see same wrestler wokr a hold, then fans are bored and either change the channel or just go to events.. look at that current house show attendence..I too miss the old schoo wrestling days beleive me, but it WILL never be the same, because the bar has been saved
To the person that wrestles to entertain fans and realize childhood dreams, you need your head examined..you mean to tell me that taking bumps to amuse indy fans who 5 minutes will forget everything they just saw is worth it, the reason the business is in the state that it is is that too many guys will porstitute themselves for the business just so they can make a highlight tape and show their friends as someone mentioned earlier..I think soem of the oldtimers would roll over in their graves if they saw what "wrestling" has become and saw soem of the so called workers that have been allowed to enter the business without paying any dues...what a shame
|
|
cody
Full Member
Posts: 130
|
Post by cody on Jan 21, 2004 21:21:34 GMT -5
OK Frank.
"to Robb the Ref: Your living in the past man, fans wan tto be entertained...when they see wrestler X in the past do tons of high spots and generally risk thier lives for the fans amusement, and then see same wrestler wokr a hold, then fans are bored and either change the channel or just go to events"
The fact is Frank, psychology DOES sell. If you watch any Smackdown program or any of the guys in the fed that have been around awhile, you will see them all use good psychology without a million crazy highspots like the "Crash TV" that is shown on TNA. Another fact is, there are 2 types of wrestling fans: 1) Fans that like WRESTLING (ie. matches that make sense) and 2) Fans that like moves (ie. highspots). In reality, the second fan is NOT an actual fan of wrestling. They are a fan of cool choreographed stunts.
"To the person that wrestles to entertain fans and realize childhood dreams, you need your head examined..you mean to tell me that taking bumps to amuse indy fans who 5 minutes will forget everything they just saw is worth it"
I haven't worked with Warhed before, but I understand where he is coming from. And Frank, ask anyone in the indy circuit and they'll tell you, "If you're in independent wrestling for the money, you're in the wrong business." I actually did a study on this last year for a sociology class and 20 of the workers I interviewed all said that same thing. We are in this business (most of us) to make it to the WWE. Why? You have a point, to make money. But Warhed has a point too... to realize a childhood dream. It's a dream I had, and still hold. For me, I'd love to make it to the WWE, because then I'd be doing what I love AND making good money. But if I don't make it, I still find satisfaction in doing what I love on the weekends as a part-time job.
Cody
|
|
|
Post by Rory MacAlister on Jan 21, 2004 21:33:40 GMT -5
Fans can be re-educated Frank. Re-education made them like the style that's on t.v now. Like anything else wrestling has been evolving since it's days at the carnivals but it has got to a point where the only place to go now is back, there is nothing ahead of where it is now apart from either gymnasts or UFC. In the past year the WWE has had 7 serious neck injuries, injuries that were for the most part futile and could have been avoided. BUT the workers were subsidising quality for quantity and paid the price. The fact is the WWE is changing and the fans will have to change with them and believe me it will be mutually benifficial. Wrestling will be made whole again and the fans will feel emotional about the matches...good times.
|
|
|
Post by Rory MacAlister on Jan 21, 2004 21:35:26 GMT -5
Fans can be re-educated Frank. Re-education made them like the style that's on t.v now. Like anything else wrestling has been evolving since it's days at the carnivals but it has got to a point where the only place to go now is back, there is nothing ahead of where it is now apart from either gymnasts or UFC. In the past year the WWE has had 7 serious neck injuries, injuries that were for the most part futile and could have been avoided. BUT the workers were subsidising quality for quantity and paid the price. The fact is the WWE is changing and the fans will have to change with them and believe me it will be mutually benifficial. Wrestling will be made whole again and the fans will feel emotional about the matches...good times.
|
|
|
Post by Matt Young on Jan 22, 2004 0:54:18 GMT -5
Just to add something to this:
Cody's right about the fans who like coreographed moves. They are what is called a casual fan, who like to see the big bumps, the high spots and the gimmick matches. They don't like wrestling - they like violence and like to be in on the "trend" when wrestling is hot.
Those who actually like wrestling appreciate the old school mentality that Robb the Reff discussed in his post. Sure he may be living in the past, but I also believe the business is going to go back to that mentality....so I call him a psychic seeing as he's predicting the future.
Rory's right.....you have to re-educate wrestling fans after having them exposed to so many high spots and a serious lack of kayfabe. It will take some time, but eventually this will happen.
There are obviously a lot of these old school fans out there today as well seeing as the Ric Flair DVD is the best selling fed DVD ever. I don't think they bought it because they expected Ric to take a bump off of a ladder through a table.....they bought it because he's simply the best in terms of psychology. So I do believe that there are a lot of pure wrestling fans out there today that won't be bored watching a headlock or some fine chain wrestling.
-Matt Young
|
|
|
Post by The Hammer on Jan 22, 2004 1:31:55 GMT -5
Thank you all who have shown me that there are still some intelligent, "pure wrestling" fans out there. It's not enough to make me step back in the ring again, but it's refreshing.
|
|
|
Post by Phil Latio on Jan 22, 2004 11:33:29 GMT -5
Just to throw my 2 cents in....
Im not sure if wrestling as a whole can be turned back. When I pop in an old school tape, I am mildly entertained, but I cant help but think wrestling of today is way better. Im not saying I dont like an old school match, but I feel wrestlnig today as a whole, is just better viewing material.
Now, with that in mind, thats not saying I want to watch a spot fest. I enjoy watching a match, with good psycology, and the build up to the high spots. To me, a high spot means nothing if there is no build up to it. I used to do spot fest all the time, but realized that they didnt mean crap, but I guess thats a part of the biz, learning, and I learned from others.
Just for the record... I want to say this before I forget.. Cody, for someone who hasnt been in the business all that long, you certainly are mature, well spoken, and respect it like a long time vet.
Thats another problem in the biz, alot of the new guys have no respect for the biz, and veterans that have been around for alot longer then they have. I am by far not a true veteran, but have been doing this for close to 9 years now, so that might be worth something. This old fart can still pull a decent match out my ass if I try. I am actually looking forward to seeing what you and I can do Cody at the Brantford show in March. I just watched our match from St Catherines the other day. It wasnt the GREATEST match I have had, but on the whole, it was pretty decent for 2 guys that had never worked..
Thats all I can think of for now
|
|
NotoriousTID
New Member
Support your local authorities!!
Posts: 13
|
Post by NotoriousTID on Jan 22, 2004 15:05:56 GMT -5
And yet you still have so much more to learn Grasshopper.
That last post of yours Phil is almost picture perfect what is wrong with this business right now.
How can I as a fan of wrestling go to the show in Brantford and think that there is any reason why you and Cody are fighting when you come out and say " boy, I can't wait to work with you in Brantford. Golly it's gonna be keen fun for us."
Where is the heat there? How am I suppossed to buy any "good guy" vs. "bad guy" here.
Is Kayfabe truly gone? I guess the correct response would be.....Das Right.
|
|