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Post by The Donkey on Nov 10, 2008 20:27:18 GMT -5
Holy hate for Phil Colins!
What's next? You guys going to hang Huey Lewis from a cross?
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The Blue Angel...
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Post by The Blue Angel... on Nov 11, 2008 2:35:05 GMT -5
there IS a song of his... or maybe it's a Genesis tune... which I've noticed is quite similar to some other widely-known song. if it was a halfway decent song then it was Genesis. Peter Gabriel rules like WHOA! "but most importantly PHILL COLLINS MUST DIE FOR THE DAMAGE HE'S DONE TO MUSIC! I bet he thinks he's a better drummer better than Ringo Starr... idiot. " My sarcasm detector is broken, so you need to confirm, that is a joke, right? yeah a litmus test joke to see who understands drumming. Ask a veteran session drummer what they think of Ringo. The whole "ringo's a shitty drummer" thing is the biggest percussionist in-joke ever. Holy hate for Phil Colins! What's next? You guys going to hang Huey Lewis from a cross? I don't mind Huey Lewis, he's fun, their music has their place and BESIDES! The News was the back up band for Elvis Costello's debut classic 'My Aim is True' so there's only love from me on that front! And speaking of Huey Lewis and the News... There was a huge Lawsuit in the 80's between Huey Lewis and the News against Ray Parker Jr's song Ghostbusters. The producers of Ghostbusters originally wanted Huey Lewis to do the theme song for the movie. When they refused to do it, the producers hired Ray Parker Jr to make a song that sounded like what the they wanted Huey Lewis to write. But obviously Ray copied the riff of "I want a new drug" a little too closely. They settled out of court.
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Post by andanotherthing on Nov 11, 2008 12:22:59 GMT -5
"yeah a litmus test joke to see who understands drumming. Ask a veteran session drummer what they think of Ringo. The whole "ringo's a shitty drummer" thing is the biggest percussionist in-joke ever."
Makes you wonder just how bad Pete Best must have been!
I just wanted to make sure that Phil Collins got his props where due. He's an awesome drummer. Check out some Brand X.
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The Blue Angel...
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Post by The Blue Angel... on Nov 11, 2008 13:00:08 GMT -5
"yeah a litmus test joke to see who understands drumming. Ask a veteran session drummer what they think of Ringo. The whole "ringo's a shitty drummer" thing is the biggest percussionist in-joke ever." Makes you wonder just how bad Pete Best must have been! I just wanted to make sure that Phil Collins got his props where due. He's an awesome drummer. Check out some Brand X. Phill collins is a good and competent drummer, not an awesome drummer. He was good with Geneisis and bland as fuck with everything he did solo. And as far as Pete Best... You gotta have a special sense of rhythm to be the type of human metronome that Ringo is. People think because he's not a flashy drummer that he's no good. But anyone who knows music knows, that the rhythm section (bass and drums) are the backbone of any good band. If you don't have a drummer who can keep perfect meter then it doesn't matter how good the other musicians in the band are, your band will suck cause no one can keep proper time. The Beatles couldn't have been as good as they are if it wasn't for Ringo inhuman sense of timing. A friend of mine worked on Shining Time Station when Ringo was Mr. Conductor. At the show's christmas party ringo was ddddddrunk off his ass, almost falling over drunk. There was a band hired to perform at the party, and drunk-ass ringo decides to get on the drums with this band. My friend (who is an excellent Blues musician btw) was blown away because drunk-ass ringo could not only keep perfect meter, but played better then the band's drummer (obviously) and he made the whole band sound like they had been playing every night with him for the past 20 years. My friend said he'd never seen anything like it, and it made him really appreciate how vital Ringo is!! cause really... as a musician (singer, piano,) with perfect meter (which is why I'm a good dancer for fuck's sake), there is NOTHING more annoying then working with a drummer who can't keep the perfect rhythm.
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Post by Bad Girl on Nov 11, 2008 13:37:50 GMT -5
I always knew Ringo was a good drummer... and now I know why! LOL
Thanks Meryle girl! I really don't have any musical knowledge besides knowing what I like. It's always good to learn something new.
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The Blue Angel...
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...you try and convince me wrestling's not gay. Go ahead! Just try!
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Post by The Blue Angel... on Nov 12, 2008 10:02:04 GMT -5
I always knew Ringo was a good drummer... and now I know why! LOL Thanks Meryle girl! I really don't have any musical knowledge besides knowing what I like. It's always good to learn something new. ;D Glad to be of service! You know me, I loooooove my geekery! My place isn't really set up for having people over, but once it is and I get a record player, you guys should come over and I'll play you some of my dad's fucked up 70's/80's LPs like Nina Hagen, or Nash the Slash or maybe some old phil spector, or leiber and stoler. I'va also got a pretty fucked up pre Space Oddity Bowie video... Although I gotta be honest... Nobody who isn't a Bowie fan can sit through watching him do a mime peice. yes that's right... David Bowie doing mime... I'm a real masochist sometimes....
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Post by andanotherthing on Nov 12, 2008 10:24:39 GMT -5
Phil Collins, "bland as fuck"? Ringo 's the king of bland!
I agree that Ringo was the man for the job, just like Phil Rudd is a great drummer for AC/DC. I completely understand that timing and 'groove' are very important, but come on, good meter is a basic requirement, and I don't hear any special nuance or finesse in Ringo's playing that would make other drummers say "ya, he really knows how to hang back and play behind the beat" or something. In fact, I've often thought, "It sounds like Ringo is a little off". I don't think that someone should be exalted for exhibiting basic competencies. Then again, Stewart Copeland was kind of loose, and he was one of the coolest drummers around. (Sting used to accuse him of losing the beat during performances) Same with Keith Moon, whom Mags mentioned earlier (not the Sting part). It's about what's right for the music, and not all musicians can fill all roles. BTW, if you are going to put such effort into defending Ringo, I'd like to hear your views on Moon, because as loose and random as he sounded, he was powerful and innovative. He really took the playing off the predictable beat, and I don't think The Who sucked or had problems keeping time.
As a long time drummer, I can fully understand and appreciate Ringo, but he'll never be a favourite of mine. To each their own.
What other drummers do you like? Maybe we can find common ground.
Edited: Nash the Slash! I haven't heard that name for a while!
Also, I just read that you play piano/sing, and how annoyed you get with drummers with imperfect time. I think that has had an influence on your appreciation of drumming. My opinion has been influenced as a player, and that raises another point. Meter is not rigid, people play around the beat. I wonder how many drummers have thought that you were too rigid and couldn't catch their groove?
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The Blue Angel...
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Post by The Blue Angel... on Nov 12, 2008 18:52:29 GMT -5
Meter is not rigid, people play around the beat. I wonder how many drummers have thought that you were too rigid and couldn't catch their groove? no shit, but you NEED a good understanding of rhythem in order to bend and break the beat. My favortie drummer that I've personally worked with (mostly as a dancer) was my favorite BECAUSE he knew how to swing the beat. He was one of two drummers for the same band and I had an opportunity to dance to the same song to my fav drummer and the punk rock drummer. I could play and work with the swing drummer, he'd speed up at the right parts, drag out the slow sultry parts and he used to try and screw with me by throwing in triples, but I always caught them and worked with them. I'm a very grooovy girl, you see... I took Jazz vocal classes for almost 10 years, I know how to bend the rhythm, I kinda have to for that! And Keith moon? big fan. he may have LOOKED loose and random when he was playing, but that has everything to do with him being a drugged up spaz, and not his actual sense of rhythm. as far as he deviated he always knew where the beat was, and could catch up with himself. Stings opinion of copeland should be taken with a grain of salt cause the police haaaaated each other. But I got nothing to say on him cause I know I don't know enough about him. Ever heard Oysterhead though? that shit's DOPE! A Stuart Copeland, Trey Anastasio (Phish) and Les Claypool (PRIMUS!) supergroup! now THAT'S some funky shit! I don't hear any special nuance or finesse in Ringo's playing that would make other drummers say "ya, he really knows how to hang back and play behind the beat" or something. He has a lot of subtlety in my opinion and I HAVE heard drummers say things like that. Mind you i also spent the past two years living with musician Beatles freaks so that may have rubbed off on me, but I've always been a big Beatles fan, and I've always thought he was a very very underrated drummer. I mean doesn't this whole debate go back to what Bert was saying about: And then back in the day, people though Keith Moon was the cat's pajamas. But shit always evolves and progresses. Even when you think there's nowhere else to go, and everything's been done. And back in the day, Keith Moon WAS the man. Did not Ringo come from a time in music where the drum was considered the backbone and not a showcase instrument it now is (sometimes...)? Again, just because he's not a flashy drummer doesn't mean he's not a really good drummer. He's about simplicity and doing what the composition needs. But simplicity and 'basic competency' are NOT the same thing. It's why the one Ringo Beatles drum solo in 'End' on Abby Road is such jokes!! I laugh every time I hear it because I can see Ringo grinning and thinking "What? You want more? pfft! the song doesn't need the extra flourish, I'm doing exactly what's perfect for the song, so there!" I think that's funny, and I think it's a legitimate artistic choice to be a minimalist. And I think that with Ringo people mistakenly see that choice as him being incompetent, and I think that's a mistake and missing the point entirely. IMHO you know, you stumped me on the favorite drummer thing, cause I'm more of a song and band (and singers... sorry, bias!) person, than a following individual musician person... BUT a band I'm pretty sweet on who have a really interesting drummer is The Dresden Dolls. Brian Viglione is one half of the band (Amanda Palmer on piano and vocals) and I think he does a lot of interesting things with rhythm and speed, and manages to fill out the songs so thoroughly that between him and Amanda's violent Piano playing they're a very full and loud sounding band. WARNING! SEXY CROSS-DRESSING! but the lyrics although about the music business Backstabber always make me think of wrestling, what with the references to being "down in japan" and bitching about stuff on message boards... Girl Anachronism, you can see Brian's playing a little better in this vid. It's from their first album These are two of their faster songs, but Brian knows how to add really nice touches and atmosphere on the slower piano centric songs that don't need the heavy time keeping.
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Post by blacknapkins on Nov 12, 2008 21:50:00 GMT -5
I'm out of my league in discussions about the mechanics of music AND a little late with some of the following but I've enjoyed this thread so much I figured wtf, might as well throw some thoughts out there... Phil Collins - In my opinion Genesis stopped being Genesis when Gabrial left the group. Having seen the original line-up play live (including "Supper's Ready") and then seeing the Collins fronted band live (again, including "Supper's Ready) there was no question in MY mind that the band Genesis died when Gabrial departed. Huey Lewis - I went to see Huey & the News in Calgary... had to be about 86-87 although it could have been a year either side of that. The concert featured "I Want a New Drug" and other hits of the day and was quite boring. Mostly because everything... and I do mean EVERYTHING seemed to be totally choreographed to remain in sync with the computer generated light show. (A complaint I had about many concerts) It just seemed totally generic and too close (if not exact) to the studio album. Then something VERY cool happened. The band took a break and Huey sat down on a monitor and pulled out a harmonica. The following 6-8 minutes were pure fucking GOLD as Huey dropped the hit generating music company created plastoid star and just poured his soul out through that humble instrument. Drummers - I dig a lot of percussion - usually stuff my wife and others find weird. African, Japanese etc but to speak specifically of rock music drummers... Neal Smith. You ever hear of him? Led Zeppelin's famed drummer John Bonham called Smith the greatest drummer ever (and Smith said the same of him)
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Post by vitoscarfone on Nov 13, 2008 9:48:51 GMT -5
While on the subject of great drummers,sad to report the passing of Mitch Mitchell,drummer for the Jimi Hendrix Experience.The wildness of Keith Moon,the swing of Elvin Jones,and the abilty to just lay down a solid groove like Charlie Watts,all in one package.R.I.P.
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Post by andanotherthing on Nov 13, 2008 12:36:02 GMT -5
Ah, Mitch Mitchell, how sad. I saw that on the news this morning. He, too, was awesome. And you mentioned Charlie Watts. I was going to mention him, too, but you beat me to it! The Blue Angel, I agree with almost everything you say. I respect and appreciate Ringo, but he still does nothing for me. It's just like wrestling: you can appreciate that someone is an excellent worker on many levels, but they just aren't over with you. To each their own. Black Napkins: A lot of people think of Genesis as pre/post Gabriel, like Van Halen pre/post Roth. I still like Genesis up to the early 80's, even though it was sufficiently different from the Gabriel days. By the time they did "Illegal Alien" and "Invisible Touch", though, I was ready to vomit! But let's give credit where it's due. It was his solo work, but the drum break on "In The Air" is simple, powerful, iconic. Like Daltrey's classic scream on "Won't get Fooled Again". I like this thread! Many informed, reasonable opinions, although we've digressed from the original topic. So, with that in mind, HEY MAGS, not only does "Bad Girlfriend" lift the lead lick from The Cult, the opening guitar line sounds suspiciously like the main line (played on bass) in The Odds' "Heterosexual man". Check it out. www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAp7tGfrkf8 35 seconds in - not exact, but it's close Peace!
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The Blue Angel...
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...you try and convince me wrestling's not gay. Go ahead! Just try!
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Post by The Blue Angel... on Nov 13, 2008 13:14:26 GMT -5
agreed. whatever floats yer boat man.
maybe I'm just retarded but isn't illegal alien a sting song, not genisis?
aaaand aside from the cult.... that shit was gay. real gay.
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Post by shygoalie on Nov 14, 2008 0:32:46 GMT -5
Micheal Jackson's "Black or White" and Tom Cochrane's "no regrets" are awefully close in the guitar riff
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Post by Emanuel Melo on Nov 29, 2008 16:37:47 GMT -5
I love this thread (well the original idea for this thread) so I thought I'd point out another almost identical song.
(C) 1995
(C) 1999
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Post by Jeremy on Dec 9, 2008 0:12:57 GMT -5
Well Coldplay is being sued over their new song Viva La Vida as they apparently stole a riff (or whatever the term is) from another song. I missed the name of it, but they played both songs and it was similar but in a different key. It was only about a 40second part that was copied. Just thought I'd mention it if anyone cared.
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