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Post by Emanuel Melo on Apr 3, 2006 11:57:06 GMT -5
You talking about my Bret rant? I'm so tired of his whining and bitching about "his legacy". As much as I love Bret Hart and his abilities in the ring, I am sick and tired of his holier than thou attitude. I don't blame him for not getting involved in any storylines but if I were Vince and I found out Bret wasn't going to even show up at WM to stand at the ramp with the other HOFer's I would have told Bret not to bother coming at all.
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Post by craigwilhelm on Apr 3, 2006 12:09:25 GMT -5
thats fucking hilarious Manny, I was saying the same stuff to the crew I was with watching Mania.
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Post by stevestevens on Apr 3, 2006 12:12:26 GMT -5
Ya but still he is a legend so you can't dismiss that because he still resents Vince and Shawn for what they did. To be honest I do agree that he is taking it WAY too hard, I mean it's wrestling Bret SHOULD have laid down for Shawn. I agree with Vince on that point. However, I think Bret was so good that I am willing to look past all that and remember him for what he was IN the ring. Some of my favorite matches are Hart Foundation matches and for that I thank all 3 of them, as well as the Bulldogs..lol
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Post by erdmania on Apr 3, 2006 12:49:33 GMT -5
If Wrestlemania has lost its magic, then you've lost your ability to just be a mark. Buildup or not, the atmosphere and presentation of Wrestlemania is just unreal, and for one night in the year, wrestlers are given many freedoms, the fans can cheer the hell out of heels and just get caught up in wrestling. And I had this conversation with Craig last night. Yes, I'm "in the know" when it comes to wrestling, obviously. I read the internet news, I analyze wrestling as a product, not as a sport, or whatever. But especially in events like Wrestlemania--it's fun, and beneficial to your enjoyment of the show, to just take sides! Cheer for a guy, don't nitpick and analyze everything--enjoy it during the match. And that's maybe why Wrestlemania has lost its magic to many people. The HHH/Cena feud could have been built up a little more, and made more "magical"--but people would have shit on Cena being on TV, and HHH's mic time that would have allowed for that to happen. Those awe-inspiring moments we remember from Wrestlemanias for the most part were not great wrestling matches. Hogan/Warrior, etc. we look back and think, "wow, this is captivating", without analyzing the shit out of it, because it's "old", it's nostalgic. Well wrestling can still be that way. Wrestling can still be a great story, with two guys that might not be that great in the ring. Everyone just won't allow it to be. If you ask the internet community what their favourite WM moment has been from the past, say...five-seven years, they'd say Angle/Michaels from WM21. A cross-brand match with minimal buildup--just a wrestling match. An amazing wrestling match, granted. But that's what we cheer for! Matches that now have no buildup--but then the internet community shits on matches and blames it on "no buildup", just to find something to say. So, to say WM had no buildup is ridiculous. As Manny said, the feuds had their time, their buildup. Stop throwing that term around, because the "smark" crowd cheers for no buildup. It's their favourite Wrestlemania moment. It's the base of their favourite federation, is it not? Go watch Lockdown, Lance Hoyt and Shark Boy--great buildup, been waiting to see those two team for months!
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Post by craigwilhelm on Apr 3, 2006 12:52:22 GMT -5
HERE HERE COREY!!! I think TNA gets alot of "at least its not WWE" praise. I've watched it since day one (well technically the 2nd PPV, and I've gone back and downloaded the first), so alot of the "awe" isnt there of it not being WWE. So no longer do I let them get away with just throwing random shit together.
Mania is Show of the year so far. Taker vs. Angle from NWO 2006 is MOTY so far. And I've seen everything from TNA, WWE, PWA, ROH, UWX, FIP, ext.
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Post by originalguest on Apr 3, 2006 14:03:13 GMT -5
In my oppinion Bret Hart has given more to this business than most other workers in the fed. His family did alot for the business in Canada, and Hart himself did alot for business in the states, and helped out alot of Canadian workers. He's the last person that I'd complain about not giving back. So he doesn't want to appear on the ppv? He had no obligation to, the ceremony was the night before, and he probably didn't want Vince making more money off of him through ppv encores and sales. Wrestlemania was alright, could have been alot better though. I think ALW has some good workers, but lets not let our egos grow too large and say that it was a better show than mania.
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Post by craigwilhelm on Apr 3, 2006 14:34:14 GMT -5
kudos on that last comment. Although I still think Mania was damn good.
My problem with Bret is he says he wants to do it for the fans, or what not, well the "fans" in Chicago wanted to see Bret, wanted to chant "thank you Bret" how fucking hard is it to step onto a stage for 10 minutes? It comes off as an ego, and sure, he can have one, but it makes me sick when people come off as phony saying they are "doing it for the fans" when its obvious they really arnt.
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Anvil
Junior Member
Posts: 81
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Post by Anvil on Apr 3, 2006 18:27:30 GMT -5
I agree with "originalguest" on this one. If I had any sort of beef (it doesn't matter why) with Vince than the LAST thing I would want to do, is generate PPV buys for him.
"it makes me sick when people come off as phony saying they are "doing it for the fans" when its obvious they really arnt."
Here's the thing. If every wrestler said fuck the fans, I'm doing it for the money, you wouldn't think very highly of them. So which would you rather, fake sincerity or brutal honesty? Allow yourself to be a mark now and then. You'll enjoy the show alot more.
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Post by forevermetal on Apr 3, 2006 19:53:43 GMT -5
Think about it this way, Vince McMahon screwed Bret Hart to make money, and now when his business needs a boost he goes pleading to Bret for him to show up at his big PPV, once again, so he can make money.
I wouldn't blame Bret Hart for one bit. And what Bret means by the fans Craig, is those loyal fans who wouldn't sell their soul's to Vince McMahon so he could make another million.
Imagine you worked for a successfull company to which you helped become successfull, your boss and some of his employees screw you over, set you up to fail, and then years later, when they need help, the come crawling to you to help them bring in some money...would you go back?
Personally, I thought Wrestlemania was terrible. There was not enough wrestling, and way too much pyros and long entrances, in other words, your typical WWE event. I felt like I was watching a dual-brand episode of Raw.
I mean, the guy who could probably wrestle circles around most of the WWE roster was dressed as a mobster (C.M. Punk)
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Post by craigwilhelm on Apr 3, 2006 21:05:05 GMT -5
I'd go back if the price was right. And the whole "screwjob" wasnt a one way thing, Bret was just as ready to screw Vince by leaving with the title and making WWF(e) look second rate.
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Post by forevermetal on Apr 4, 2006 9:28:25 GMT -5
Bret was just as ready to screw Vince by leaving with the title and making WWF(e) look second rate. And you knkow this how? By what evidence was there that Bret was going to screw Vince by leaving WITH the title? Your just making an assumption. It was well documented that Bret Hart had signed with WCW and was leaving, he didn't want to drop the title in his home country.
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Post by Emanuel Melo on Apr 4, 2006 10:10:16 GMT -5
I wouldn't blame Bret Hart for one bit. And what Bret means by the fans Craig, is those loyal fans who wouldn't sell their soul's to Vince McMahon so he could make another million. Imagine you worked for a successfull company to which you helped become successfull, your boss and some of his employees screw you over, set you up to fail, and then years later, when they need help, the come crawling to you to help them bring in some money...would you go back? So Bret is ok with going to the HOF and being inducted but not showing up on a ramp and waving to the fans??? He sold his soul when he agreed to do the DVD and agreed to be inducted but obviously both those involvements were to satisfy his selfish need to be "immortilized". If he didn't want to "sell his soul" then he should have done NOTHING with the WWE, not the DVD and not the HOF. You'll like my Melo-Dramatic Opinion on OWR this week as I rant on this very subject. He has become so obsessed with "his legacy" and has turned from what I considered a Canadian legend into a bitter, self serving individual. Just look at these quotes from his Off The Record interview (Thanks to 514wrestling.com for the recap): Bret says a few days after the Screwjob, he still would've agreed to do it (The Hall of Fame) because he earned it. Although, when they called him to be inducted, he tried to convince himself that he wouldn't go.
Sounds like he would have sold his soul right from the get go if it meant putting himself over. Hart said the WWE didn't keep their promise about keeping Michaels away. Bret doesn't forgive Michaels for anything.Bret sounds like a spoiled 16 year old girl that woudn't go to the high school dance because the rival popular girl would be there. I'm sure Vince did everything Bret wanted to get him to show up on the ramp at Wrestlemania. If I was Vince and Shawn I would have said the hell with him. Shawn probably figured if his staying away from the HOF would help Vince convince Bret to appear at WM then he would do it but when it was obvious that Bret had no intention of doing that Shawn decided to show up anyway. Why should Shawn have to miss the ceremony because Bret isn't willing to act professional? If I were Vince I would have revoked his HOF induction and told Bret if you can't work with us then we can't work with you. Landsberg asked what Bret's legacy would be. Bret called himself an artist. Michaels may have worked a little harder, Hogan may have drawn bigger crowds, and maybe Flair lasted longer than he did, but Hart was better than all of them. I love Hart's ability and think he is quite talented in the ring but he was no Ric Flair. Bret had very little mic skills and Flair could do it in and out of the ring. Bret called himself the perfect guy to work with and wishes he could've wrestled himself.
Who says that about themselves? Wow, quite the ego there Bret. I have lost a ton of respect for Bret.
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Post by forevermetal on Apr 4, 2006 11:17:58 GMT -5
I'm not disagreeing with you that he has an ego, everyone in the wrestling business has an ego, but he did the DVD and he attended the HOF because he wanted to tell his story and thank the fans.
He gave a 45 minute speech at the HOF, that's what Bret wanted to do...how do we know the truth behind him not showing up? Maybe Vince's offer was that Bret could only stand on the stage and wave if he participated in his storyline?
Bret Hart was a better wrestler than Ric Flair, Ric Flair was a good worker, but he had no athleticism and very little technical abilities, but that's my opinion.
I think Bret and Vince have become obsessed, I mean, you seem to be blaming Bret Hart soley for an event that took place in 1997, that was started by his boss.
If you listened to some of Bret's other interviews, he clearly stated he would do the DVD thing, give an acceptance speech, and most importantly, he would still not participate in storylines.
It's clear that both men don't want to lose to the other, but for Vince to start a storyline with Shawn Michaels in hopes of luring Bret Hart into it so he could say he has won the war and can reap the rewards, doesn't make Vince any better than Bret.
They both need to get over it.
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Post by Emanuel Melo on Apr 4, 2006 11:34:29 GMT -5
Both sides had their reasons to pull the screwjob and no question Vince was at fault as well in that situation. I'm not upset at Bret because he didn't participate in storylines. I agree with Bret on that one (as much as the mark in me would love to see it). He should have stood on the ramp with the other Hall of Famers. That's my big gripe with him. Yes wrestlers have egos but Bret's ego is larger than life lately.
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Post by forevermetal on Apr 4, 2006 11:42:54 GMT -5
He should have stood on the ramp with the other Hall of Famers. That's my big gripe with him. Yes wrestlers have egos but Bret's ego is larger than life lately. But you see, that's my point. Vince could have given him one option and that was, if he was going to show up at the event, he must participate in Vince's storyline....and that's where we don't know the whole story, so to have a gripe with him over something that he may not have had control over is fetching a little too far ahead, but we all have our reasons.
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